tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post3622461695583936868..comments2023-09-22T15:44:10.411-04:00Comments on CUUMBAYA: One last post about the FFRF ad controversyJoel Monkahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10631333436948102576noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-64442086976533626862009-09-15T09:41:59.526-04:002009-09-15T09:41:59.526-04:00Goodwolve, when you say, " it seems to me the...Goodwolve, when you say, " it seems to me there are other places for you," I would like to know what other places you have in mind. In particular:<br /><br />Where are the other places for theists who perceive the presence of a transcendent or immanent divinity that is beyond material existence, but is not necessarily a personal being and not adequately portrayed by the God of the Bible? <br /><br />Where are the other places for Universalists who believe that Christ's death on the cross redeems the sins of the entire human race, and not only of a select few?<br /><br />Where are the other places for Unitarians who see in Jesus the supreme archetype and example for what it means to be human, replacing the fallen archetype of Adam and serving as mediator between God and humanity, but who do not see him as identical with or one of three "persons" comprising the one true God?<br /><br />Each of these views was once dominant in Unitarianism and/or Universalism before either denomination had many atheists. Some UUs and some UU churches still affirm them. Where else can they do so?faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-49277393308692882832009-09-15T00:43:03.617-04:002009-09-15T00:43:03.617-04:00I don't understand why the ad quoted Dickenson...I don't understand why the ad quoted Dickenson or Twain at all. Neither of them were atheists as far as I know and both quotes were things that lots of people have said. <br /><br />I don't recall anyone claiming they were UU. I think that UUs mostly like them because they were good writers who said cool things. <br /><br />I think UUs mostly like Darrow because "Inherit the Wind" is lots of people's introduction to humanism and Darrow makes a compelling case for it in the play/movie. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-83127416228120727282009-09-14T23:41:01.246-04:002009-09-14T23:41:01.246-04:00why are you in the UU church if you believe in god...<b>why are you in the UU church if you believe in god?</b><br /><br />Jacqueline, you ask if there is "room" for an atheist in Unitarian Universalism, to the point where you want to throw out all of the theists?!<br /><br />Unitarian Universalism has its roots in Protestant Christianity, roots that go back a thousand years or more. Our tent gets bigger, not smaller, as time goes by -- it was expanded to include humanists and atheists right alongside the theists and others who were already there to begin with.<br /><br />Why are you in the UU church if you don't believe in God, or religion, even? (see how obnoxious that is?)Jesshttp://jesspages.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-79190267356044277022009-09-14T23:23:52.602-04:002009-09-14T23:23:52.602-04:00And of course we haven't even factored in this...And of course we haven't even factored in this long, checkered journey--the evolution of the concept of God. The word doesn't mean what it used to mean.<br /><br />I'm a theist, sort of, I guess, but my "God" is natural law, not an old guy who pulls marionette strings. There is power beyond human power, that's all I know.Lilylouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02328027965155428624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-88216511909316045072009-09-14T21:58:24.831-04:002009-09-14T21:58:24.831-04:00Goodwolve, a good number of UU churches are theist...Goodwolve, a good number of UU churches are theist rather than atheist in orientation, and some of those, including some of the oldest ones in the denomination, are even quite traditionally Christian (though practicing, of course, a distinctively Unitarian or Universalist doctrinal variety of Christianity). For examples, see <a href="http://www.firstchurchinsalem.org/index.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://www.firstuniversalist.net/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://www.uuworld.org/life/articles/2708.shtml" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://www.kings-chapel.org/worship.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://www.firstparishweston.org/welcome.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://www.universalist.org/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, <a href="http://www.theeliotchurch.org/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, and <a href="http://www.firstparishinlincoln.org/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Many of these churches are among the very oldest in our Association, and were among the founding congregations of the Unitarian or Universalist denominations. They still practice the same liberal Christianity today that they always have. <br /><br />Your question suggests that either you aren't aware that the breadth of theological orientation among our membership still includes such churches and such believers, or else you are indeed aware of them but feel they have outstayed their welcome. I hope the former is the case, but if it is instead the latter, why?faustohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08858053354116695746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-25687190469505689092009-09-14T21:05:00.769-04:002009-09-14T21:05:00.769-04:00When I joined a Unitarian Universalist Church for ...When I joined a Unitarian Universalist Church for the first time in 1992 I was told by the minister that there were three kinds of UU Churches: theistic, Christian, and secular humanist. From that standpoint it would appear that many attend a church that is less than a perfect fit for them and there is going to need to be some need for agree to disagree for there to be order, which Will Durant discovered in his life work to be the fundamental prerequisite for human freedom.Mickbichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02219995234630216502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-86790948460384012542009-09-14T18:51:13.030-04:002009-09-14T18:51:13.030-04:00I don't know if was deliberate, but it is inte...I don't know if was deliberate, but it is interesting that half of the six people quoted, Dickinson, Twain, and Darrow are regarded as saints by many UUs despite the fact that the religion they were rejecting was, in fact, Unitarianism. All three had many Unitarian associates. Dickinson's publisher was Thomas Wentworth Higginson, the Unitarian minister and close ally of Theodore Parker. Twain socialized with Unitarians who lived near him in Connecticut. Unitarians were prominent allies of both Twain and Darrow in their political work.<br /><br />If any of the three had decided to set foot in a church, it probably would have been Unitarian. But they didn't. They knew all about us and rejected us. Of course, they join a long list of UU heroes who rejected Unitarianism, Jefferson, Emerson, Thoreau, Parker, S.B Anthony, Margaret Fuller, Margaret Sanger, M.L. King etc. etc.<br /><br />So I suggest we start canonizing actual UUs. Let's hear it for Millard Fillmore!Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-57137916163930915782009-09-14T16:17:00.653-04:002009-09-14T16:17:00.653-04:00I find that question sort of funny given that &quo...I find that question sort of funny given that "Why do you want to go to church if you're an atheist?" was a question I got a fair amount when I was one. (Yes, Goodwolve, I was an atheist for awhile, I assume this means that by your terms I've gotten stupider.)<br /><br />I wish we could all accept that people of lots of different religious inclinations want a place where we can come together and focus on something greater than ourselves while finding fellowship and community without all this theological drama. <br /><br />CCChalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-59916434946544115442009-09-14T16:06:09.237-04:002009-09-14T16:06:09.237-04:00Goodwolve, I don't take offense at your questi...Goodwolve, I don't take offense at your question at all- I understand it. To take your last point first, why wouldn't I want to fellowship with you? It doesn't matter to me what people <i>believe</i>, only what they <i>do</i>. And from all your writing, you're a decent, honest, and more importantly courageous person who writes well to boot. Sounds like someone I'd like to hang out with.<br /><br />As to why I'm in a UU church, I thought it was a non-credal church. Isn't "Thou must <i>not</i> believe" just as much of a creed as "Thou must"?<br /><br />As to there being other places to go... well actually, no, there aren't. The Christians sure as <i>Hell</i> don't want me, (I've heard Exodus 22:18 quoted quite enough, thank you), Muslims think less of Pagans than they do of Christians and Jews, and the Pagan groups that can most nearly be called nationwide are Dianic or Satanist. So if I'm out of town, and we travel often, there is no other place to go.Joel Monkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10631333436948102576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-82622483989362504012009-09-14T15:04:14.287-04:002009-09-14T15:04:14.287-04:00Here is my question... and please don't take o...Here is my question... and please don't take offense... why are you in the UU church if you believe in god? I will write more about this later, but it seems to me there are other places for you... why sit here with me? I am all for you believing what you want to believe... I just wonder why you would WANT to do that with me (when you know I don't think god exists). Thanks for the conversation - Jgoodwolvehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05475291423805924571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-80157426072466673052009-09-14T13:53:48.012-04:002009-09-14T13:53:48.012-04:00Word.Word.Chalicechickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07781469958573869914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-78745321930186371872009-09-14T13:48:55.395-04:002009-09-14T13:48:55.395-04:00You hit the nail squarely on the head. Thanks.You hit the nail squarely on the head. Thanks.Jesshttp://jesspages.net/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20795009.post-28173124368501085722009-09-14T13:34:48.544-04:002009-09-14T13:34:48.544-04:00My reply was too long-winded, apparently, so I pos...My reply was too long-winded, apparently, so I posted it on my own blog: <a href="http://innerlight-radiantlife.blogspot.com/2009/09/literalism-outrage-and-imagined.html" rel="nofollow">Literalism, outrage, and imagined victimhood</a>.Paul Oakleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17426789386840488470noreply@blogger.com