As more and more UUs start their own blogs, we occasionally run into the phenomenon of one blog post asking a question that another blog post answers. For example, at Transient and Permanent, the question is asked, Do Unitarian-Universalists Think Less of People Who Use the Word “God”? .
Meanwhile, over at “Heretic, Rebel, Thing to Flout”, in the post UNITARIAN UNIVERSALISM AND PAGANISM--Faith, Ritual and Metaphor , Patrick Murfin tells us “Inclusion of some pagan rites, whether historically accurate or cooked up in some Victorian eccentric’s garden, does not alarm me if the practitioners do not believe that they are literally invoking specific gods, goddesses or spirits who will perform specific tasks or expect the congregation to do so. While there are Wiccans out there—and other organized and semi-organized pagans and neo-pagans—who really, really do believe that every incantation uttered is both real and true, those are not the folks who are comfortable being part of a UU community any more than a Christian who literally believes he/she is consuming the body and blood of Christ in communion will be comfortable.”
Clearly, there are UUs who think less of those who speak of God- at least, if they believe what they are saying. If you’re only toying with someone’s sacred scriptures in order to draw a metaphor, that’s ok... but you’d better not mean it! Wiccan or Christian, if you truly believe, you’re not welcome here! I had thought we didn’t discriminate because we had learned the lesson over the centuries the heart ache and violence that it leads to... but I’m learning the truth is that we don’t discriminate because we don’t take anything seriously enough to care.
19 comments:
Fellow Worker Murfin, who I remember from IWW days, would not be able to convenant just down the road in our Church were we gather ...not as agreeing in opinion, not as having attained universal truth in belief or perfection in character, but as seekers after truth and goodness.
Pat you need to lighten up here on others beliefs.\
If an incantation gave us next Friday's winning numbers, we'd all be chanting.
This guy has never struck me as a careful thinker and I couldn't possibly disagree with him more here.
CC
Sorry to have to further disillusion you Joel. . . Patrick's a sweet little pussycat compared to Jeff Liebmann, Rev. Ray Drennan, pr indeed any number of other intolerant fundamentalist atheist U*Us who dogmatically believe that belief in God is an illusion or indeed a delusion. How many times do I have to say that God believing people are anything but genuinely welcome in many U*U "Welcoming Congregations" before people will believe me?
Pat was a fixture on Chicago's left for years.
He really ought to reconsider the living history museum much of the left's become and grapple instead with the left's failur to defend trade unionists in Iraq.
If it's neo isolationism that's replaced the IWW's internationalism, it's best to sort out those implications rather than worry about driving God out of our churches.
I'd argue there are some demons among the left that should be exorcised first.
I agree. The Unitarian Church of Montreal would do well to exorcise the "Stalinistic" Totalitarian Unitarians who continue to demonize me. . .
"I had thought we didn’t discriminate because we had learned the lesson over the centuries the heart ache and violence that it leads to. . ."
Not bloody likely Joel. U*Us have not even learned from the lesson that the last decade of heart ache and violence that U*U discrimination has lead to. . .
:but I’m learning the truth is that we don’t discriminate because we don’t take anything seriously enough to care.
Actually U*Us do discriminate, sometimes in ways that can be justifiably described as intolerance, prejudice and outright bigotry, and you know that very well Joel. Too bad most U*Us don't take legitimate complaints about such discrimination within the U*U World seriously enough to care. . .
"U*Us have not even learned from the lesson that the last decade of heart ache and violence that U*U discrimination has lead to. . ."
So now you're equating your case to the martyrdom of the early Unitarians. How far can your ego go? I can think of only one place further you can escalate this to... please tell me the name of the judge in your upcoming case isn't Pontius Pilate...
You`re the one who is disingenuously making that connection Joel, no doubt in order to try to discredit me with some all too typical U*U DIM Thinking.
I am simply pointing out that U*Us have not even learned from the clear lessons provided by very recent well-documented U*U history that does include a certain amount of heart ache and indeed some violence on the part of U*Us. I don`t even know the name of the judge in my upcoming case. Nor do I know the name of the judge that I was in front of yesterday morning to contest a ticket that I had received as a result of U*Us accusing me of "dirtying the sidewalk" with my chalk slogans during the course of my protest. I am happy to report however that all of the judges and prosecutors that I have dealt with so far seem to be far more concerned about ensuring that my case is handled with genuine justice, geniune equity, and maybe even some compassion than most U*Us are. . .
That goes for the vast majority of the police officers I have dealt with too Joel, perhaps especially those police officers who actually arrested me on three different occasions. Only a small minority of Montreal police officers have seriously abused their authority in this matter. The same cannot be said about the leaders of the Unitarian Church of Montreal or the UUA.
So go blow it out your U*U. . .
"So go blow it out your U*U. . ." Tut tut, Robin. If I'm allowing you to comment-spam, the least you can do is to do it politely.
My comments here are entirely on topic to the subject matter of your original post, or follow-up comments that you and other people have made here Joel. If you want me to be polite here I suggest that you refrain from engaging in snide "personal attack" insults yourself. . .
""My comments here are entirely on topic to the subject matter of your original post""
Joel had posted about blowing things out his U*U?
Robin, when you took off on ""I had thought we didn’t discriminate because we had learned the lesson over the centuries the heart ache and violence that it leads to. . ."
Not bloody likely Joel. U*Us have not even learned from the lesson that the last decade of heart ache and violence that U*U discrimination has lead to. . .", you were quite clearly comparing yourself to those who had been persecuted over the centuries. Unless you can show the scars where you've been burned at the stake, you deserved the ridicule.
As to being on-topic, usually you're the only one who would ever think so. If I said "I met the nicest guy over the weekend- and you should see his four-door Taurus", you'd comment,"Not everyone in a Taurus is nice," and link it to some article mentioning that Rev Drennan drives a Taurus. AND you'd claim you wereperfectly on topic.
Thanks for publicly acknowledging that you ridiculed me here Joel. Not only that but, according to your public testimony here, I deserved ridicule. AFAIAC You thus very much *deserved* my suggestion that you can blow your DIM Thinking insults and ridicule out your U*U.
:Robin, when you took off on ""I had thought we didn’t discriminate because we had learned the lesson over the centuries the heart ache and violence that it leads to. . ."
:you were quite clearly comparing yourself to those who had been persecuted over the centuries.
Wrong Joel. I was simply pointing out that U*Us had not learned from the heart ache and (comparatively low level) violence of much more recent history. I never at any time suggested that the level of violence was the same.
:Unless you can show the scars where you've been burned at the stake, you deserved the ridicule.
Wrong again Joel. I linked from the word violence to exactly the kind of violence that I was referring to. I have in fact been physically assaulted by U*Us on a number of occasions and, while I do not have any actual scars from those physical assaults I did receive some scrapes and bruises etc. I may even have a photo or two of the physical evidence of one of those assaults on me Joel. I definitely do have a photo of the temporary welts on my wrist caused by police handcuffing me to tightly the last time they arrested me. I have never exaggerated the violence that U*Us are guilty of and I have even played it down, even when reporting it to the police, but that does not change the fact that some Montreal Unitarian U*Us are guilty of engaging in a variety of physically violent acts during this conflict.
In fact, I was physically assaulted, and threatened with even more serious assault, very soon after I began protesting in 1998 by UCM Board member Pierre Binette. I did not call the police but I did file a formal complaint about this assault opn me with the Unitarian Church of Montreal's vice President at the time John Inder, who as tje chairperson of the UCM's "Stalinistic" "Disruptive Behaviour Committee" was responsible for dealing with complaints about "disruptive behaviour". . . Needless to say, this "Humanist" U*U, who had previously had me expelled for a full six months for the alleged "disruptibve behaviour" of placing a letter of grievance in the letter boxes of UCM Board members, did absolutely nothing about Pierre Binette's "disruptive behaviour" of physically assaulting me and threatening me with a more serious assault in the future I did not stop protesting. . .
For the record Rev. Ray Drennan drove a big gas guzzling Buick or Oldsmobile station wagon with a bumper sticker that said -
Practice random acts of kindness and senseless acts of beauty
But he obviously preferred to practice rather less than random acts of intolerance and senseless acts of bigotry.
And yes, everything that I have written here is very much on topic to the subject of this thread, which is clearly about the anti-religious intolerance and bigotry of fundamentalist atheist Unitarian*Universalist U*Us. Everything I have just related here arises as a direct or indirect consequence of the no so random acts of intolerance, and senseless acts of bigotry, of Rev. Ray Drennan, Frank Greene, John Inder and other "Humanist" Montreal Unitarian U*Us.
Getting back to what Patrick Murfin tells us I would lioke to point out that he told us -
"I am less alarmed than some by the introduction of some pagan elements occasionally to UU worship even if it is not my personal cup of tea."
Please note that the clear implication of this statement is that *some* other U*Us are more *alarmed* than Patrick Murfin by the introduction of some pagan elements *occasionally* to UU worship. I have very good reason to believe that Patrick Murfin is being honest here and that is one of the reasons why I said that he is a "sweet little pussycat" compared to *some* other U*Us.
How did he physically assault you?
There were several physical assaults. Most involved pushing and shoving or having objects thrown at me. Pierre Binette assaulted me by shoving me around, then forcefully and firmly grabbing my shirt at the collar, holding his fist leveled at my faced ready to throw a punch and threatening to carry through with punching me in the face if I did not stop protesting. Neither John Inder, nor any other Montreal Unitarian U*Us did anything to hold Pierre Binette for this "disruptive behaviour".
Well, judging from the minimal number of commenters here, I would have to say that U*Us don’t take this blog post of yours seriously enough to care Joel. . .
Actually, I believe they do- there have been hundreds of hits. What it demonstrates is why you're banned from so many places, Robin- you're the thread killer. When people see you posting, their eyes glaze over and they stop reading. Haven't you noticed how few people comment on your own blog? If CC, Andrix and I stopped posting you'd get about three comments a year.
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